Using Technology to Deepen Democracy, Using Democracy to Ensure Technology Benefits Us All

Monday, July 09, 2012

The Reactionary Progress Narrative Coiled Like A Snake Inside Our Commonplace Understanding of "Technology"

I have had an interesting exchange (upgraded and adapted below) with "Summerspeaker" in the Moot to this post. Summer and I both have theory backgrounds and this is reflected in the kinds of terminology and shortcuts we are deploying, so if this isn't your cup of tea, please don't get too mad about it.

Summer writes:
I'm not sure what to think of your extremely broad and flat definition of technology. Numerous analysts (Hiedegger comes to mind) draw a distinction between handcrafted tools like flints and mass-produced artifacts such as iPhones. It's all empty space smeared with electrical charge when you get down to it, but that doesn't usually prove the most useful framework for navigating this material world. As fraught as all concepts of nature and its opposites are, I say the narrative of increasing technology/artifice/artificiality in the modern era has merit. Your position that computers, cars, buildings, and so on merely constitute a variation on the inherently human theme of technology confuses more than it clarifies. From my specific historical perspective in the midst the world industrial economy, the differences between iPhones and flints outweigh their similarities. Even the notion of technological progress shouldn't be completely discarded. Increasing sophistication and efficiency has happened on the whole, albeit in the context of a system that threatens total ecological collapse (to name but one of its horrors). All other things being equal, shotguns and hunting rifles are more effective killing tools than flint-tipped spears and arrows. This trend of enhancement -- as uneven, troubled, and dangerous as it is -- deserves naming and contemplation.
I reply:

Aren't you discarding all my insistence on material and historical specification? What you are calling my "broad and flat definition" is an intervention crafted precisely to undermine progressive and transcedentalizing narratives of "technology" because of the obfuscatory and reactionary ideological work I observe them doing. But I don't deny there are differences that make a difference between flints and cellphones, I just deny that it makes much sense to say that cellphones are more "sophisticated" than flints, or make their users more "technologized" in some important sense. I don't agree that the latter sorts of narratives actually DO contribute to specificity at all. From what perspective do you say a cellphone is more sophisticated than a chipped flint, given what the needs of a hunter-gatherer are? Can you replicate one, can most people forced to assemble cellphones under horrific conditions (usually, mind you, by hand) replicate one? Do you really think one is more essentially cyborgic in some meaningful way when you feel a cellphone vibrate in your pocket than is a hunter-gatherer sparking a killing tip blunted during the afternoon's hunt against a bone?

You go on to say "increasing sophistication and efficiency has happened on the whole" in a way that "deserves naming and contemplation." "On the whole"? What whole? I think this is nonsense, and I think you have already written elsewhere many times of the pernicious effects of such generalized progress narratives. You qualify this claim by referencing, say, unsustainable practices or the lethal, and I would say frankly illegal, mayhem of drone bombers -- but I have to wonder if it is enough to treat these as "exceptions" to some larger drama in which humans are technologizing into ever more "sophisticated" and "efficient" super-humans, rather than to grasp how these exceptions give the lie to the very idea of sophistication and efficiency presumably being yielded by "technology" otherwise "on the whole"?

From what position is one supposed to be declaring things more "sophisticated" on the whole? By what standard? I don't agree some kid playing a video game on his cellphone is more "sophisticated" than a hunter-gatherer staring exhausted at the stars. And efficiency? Efficiency is always efficiency in the service of some outcome as compared to some other effort -- I don't think it even makes sense to attribute it "on the whole."

Just look at the sorts of specificities that come into view if we attend to the sorts of things your "albeit" seeks to shunt under the carpet of this grand techno-amplification "on the whole" of sophistication and efficiency: High energy input-intensive monoculture that gets diminishing yields while destroying topsoil and losing the ability to fend off pests is hardly "more sophisticated" or "more effective" than permaculture alternatives any more than I would say long-distance weapons that kill civilians in ways we claim to disapprove of in our own propaganda or which facilitate alienation that undermines critical engagement with hostile terrain is "more sophisticated" or "more effective" than alternative techniques like complex diplomatic initiatives would be. Am I really supposed to treat these as quibbles, hiccoughs in the road toward an ever increasing sophistication and efficiency "on the whole"? I think specificities provide us the way to disapprove of these risky, costly artifacts and techniques as well as to disprove the benefits that are attributed to them compared to other options on offer, and I think my understanding of technology demands we attend to just these specificities at all times.

Unsustainable industrial agriculture and militarism are complex problems the details of which you are already familiar with so I won't rehearse them, but I do insist that embedding these details in big techno-progressive or techno-regressive or techno-convergence or techno-autonomizing or techno-transcendentalizing narratives will obscure them far more than illuminate their specific stakes to the actual diversity of their stakeholders. Sustainability, democratization, consensualization, equity-in-diversity are the ethical and political narratives I prefer to plug these material and stakeholder specificities into instead, which is I think more apt.

Like you, I am willing to concede a place for technodevelopmental progress as well. I say, technodevelopmental progress is what happens when the actual costs, risks, and benefits of technoscientific change are distributed equitably to the diversity of the stakeholders to that change by their lights as a consequence of ongoing social struggle. I think progressive agency is entirely located at the site of its personal protagonists, peer to peer, and that it is just as deranging to locate such agency at the site of "technology" as it is to attribute "intelligence" at that site -- something futurologists also mistakenly do all the time too, and for related reasons.

Definitely I disagree that "enhancement in general" is happening at all, or is even an intelligible locution, at any rate the way that discourse seems to me to be playing out rhetorically in the actual world of policy discourse and bioethics (blech). I think in embracing the current discourse of "enhancement" you are stumbling into another "on the whole" construction that functions to evacuate political and historical specificity again. Enhancement is always -- enhancement according to whom? Enhancement -- in respect of what? Enhancement -- together with what diminishment? Enhancement -- compared to what? Enhancement -- at what cost? There is no "enhancement in general" any more than there is "increasing efficiency on the whole." (Certainly there is no -- and heaven help you for even using the phrase! -- general "trend of enhancement." Ugh! As I say in my futurological brickbats: "Whenever I hear the word trend, I reach for my brain.")

Talk of "enhancement" seems to me to function precisely to evacuate existing stakeholder disputes and perspectival diversity from discussions of technoscientific change -- much as do narratives of naturalized progress, as against historical and social struggle accounts of progress -- in an effort to pretend that "technology" is delivering more More MORE and never at any abiding cost to anybody. Of course, you will notice that I am now accusing you of doing through "increasing sophistication and efficiency on the whole" and "enhancement in general" precisely what you began by accusing me of doing when I insist that "technology" denotes an ongoing collective struggle through which agency is re-elaborated prosthetically/ culturally in history, peer to peer.

I don't want you to think I am simply responding to your intervention with "I know you are but what am I!" You see, I think you were wrong to worry about my definition as flattening because "collective elaboration" is all about demanding the details you worry about losing, and disables -- at least this is my hope -- obfuscatory and reactionary teleological and naturalizing and de-historicizing narrativations of technodevelopmental social struggle. I think you think increasing capacitation "on the whole" and increasing enhancement "in general" ARE specific claims while I think they are illusory (and sometimes outright silly) perspectival effects and empty self-congratulatory commendations yielded by the kind of futurological discourse you are still employing, and in the service of whose ideology you are still a footsoldier, whether you like it or not, mirages behind which contentious historical specificities vanish in the service of elite incumbent interests and anti-democratic politics.

19 comments:

Summerspeaker said...

I don't mean to code technological progress/development/advance as positive by identifying quantifiable increases in efficiency/speed/power as a meaningful historical trend. The language I use does tend to imply that, but I come at this issue from a background in primitivism as well as transhumanism. Anti-civ discourse likewise relies on the notion of modern technology as new and different. I'm critical of both primitivism and the Singularity movement, but I see much value in assessing technoscience as a powerful and continually growing force in contemporary society. The framework I'm arguing for lends itself as readily to apocalyptic tales of dehumanization and devastation as to utopian visions of awesome.

Perhaps I should call the phenomenon "MOAR NUMBERS!" While never universal, human innovation over the last five hundred years - even before technoscience proper - has proven remarkably capable of turning up the dials on energy, force, power, speed, and so on. The use of compact chemical energy sources like gunpowder, coal, and gasoline transformed the scope and scale of human activity. Quantifiable increase appears all over the timeline. Bullets hit with more joules than arrows. Cars go faster than horses. Emails travel swifter and further than than my voice. Transistor density keeps on doubling. You can search more lines of text via Google than existed in entire Library of Alexandria. Etc ad nauseum.

I wouldn't call any of this progress, but the generalization that technoscience has enhanced human capacity strikes me as a useful and defensible one. How does your variation-&-specificity model account for the often literal explosion of power brought about by modern technology? Hunter-gatherers didn't have to worry about accidentally causing nuclear winter or global warming with their flints.

Today's nation-states wield destructive forces comparable of to those of ancient gods. That's a big deal. I feel such quantifiable increases warrant reflection and - the horror! - suggest future scenarios. How else should I name these processes? Variation of specifics doesn't do it for me.

P.S. Speaking of quantifiable increase, these reverse Turing tests are starting to strain my visual ability. Soon I'll need a robot's help to prove I'm not a robot.

Dale Carrico said...

Soon I'll need a robot help to prove I'm not a robot.

No joke, I expect that is where we are going.

Dale Carrico said...

How does your variation- &- specificity model account for the often literal explosion of power brought about by modern technology? Hunter-gatherers didn't have to worry about accidentally causing nuclear winter or global warming with their flints.

That's a fair point. When environmentalists describe this epoch as "anthropocene" as a way of indicating that human politics is now having impacts on geological scales and timescales this is indeed a mostly new phenomenon (given macroscale impacts of non-sustainable agricultural, not completely unprecedented, but still). I agree, too, that the nuclear bomb was new, as are some biowarfare techniques -- inaugurating the moment when either war is through or we are, in Herman Wouk's righteous turn of phrase.

I don't mean to deny any of that, but I don't think it makes much sense to go from these recognitions to making claims about "technology in general." I think respect for the real material threats of carbon pollution, resource descent, or nuclear winter demands that we not assimilate these realities to marketing hype over cellphone apps or boner pills or anti-aging creams a la transhumanism.

As for transistor density doubling and the fossil fuel bubble and so on, if I'm not already dead I'm sure I'll be too busy trying to keep the local wind-powered organic co-ops running with my queer hippy friends in Berzerkeley to have the time to say "I told you so."

Seriously, kidding aside, why are you clinging to meta-narratives that demand you assimilate all these actually substantially socially culturally politically historically different constellations of artifacts and techniques to one another -- just to tell a dramatic story? You know as well as I do the uses to which assholes with far more resources at their disposal than we have keep using these techno-transcendentalizing narratives for profit and empire!

Summerspeaker said...

As we've argued about before, I think there's something to Kurzweil's thesis of accelerating returns. The current technoscientific establishment excels at increasing an array of numbers: speed, power, crude efficiency, and so on. I disagree that this dynamic is illusory, though it certainly does vary a great deal by specifics. (Medicine shows less meaningful numerical increase than information technology, for example.) Additionally, the optimized variables are often irrelevant or worse to me. (Example: Higher-yield or more precise bombs for the U.S. military.) All of it rests on a horrific system of exploitation and unsustainable resource extraction. With those crucial caveats as well as a few others, I do accept technoscience as advancing process. This doesn't, of course, make it inevitable, autonomous, or a good thing. But the basic idea that empirical research and expanding archives of knowledge enables indefinite improvement has merit. I suspect you agree with this at some level, as you regularly espouse respect for consensus science, so we're primarily arguing about emphasis.

Dale Carrico said...

Well, to start with, Ray Kurzweil is a complete huckster. Let's just say that seeming unaware of that doesn't exactly inspire confidence.

Further, to say, as you do, "technoscience [is an] advancing process" is doubly misleading:

First, there is no such thing as "technoscience in general" which can be said to be advancing, when some things advance, others do not, others depend on other areas advancing, others shift convulsively, others become obsolete, and so on.

Second, "advancing" is a term that resonates with the normative; "progress" isn't just about amplification of force but about justice, for example... and in my view, it is always social struggle that makes specific technoscientific changes matters of actual "advance" and "progress" when, and only to the extent, that citizens struggle to ensure the costs, risks, and benefits of those changes are equitably distributed to the diversity of stakeholders to change.

Again, actual advance and progress is the work of citizens, not scientists or engineers (including scientists and engineers as citizens). This is not to deny scientific discoveries and engineering implementations are the material out of which progress is sometimes (but by no means always) substantially made. But there is nothing any more likely to be progressive than reactionary in this technoscientific matter in the absence of historical struggle. Nothing, ever.

Sorry, I just don't buy it. You claim to accept the key caveats here and to refuse neutral or natural progress narratives, and I'm glad you do since they're important and too few understand this... but, c'mon Summer! You are still pretending to be a supporter of transhumanoid and Kurzweilian formulations that DON'T accept these caveats and AREN'T concerned with these issues, but instead endlessly indulge them. I don't agree that this is a matter of different emphases.

I think you need to grasp that futurological discourse is an inherently reactionary amplification of mainstream marketing deceptions and neoliberal developmental discourse and western triumphal scientism. Nobody needs to join a Robot Cult to respect consensus science or advocate for a more sustainable and equitable distribution of technodevelopmental costs, risks, and benefits to the actual diversity of their specific stakeholders.

Indeed, few who cared about such things would come within a hundred miles of the transhumanoid and singularitarian and techno-immortalist and nano-cornucopian and greenwashing geo-engineering sub(cult)ures except to laugh them into non-threatening marginality.

Summerspeaker said...

As I've been trying to make clear, I mean advance in the sense of "MORE NUMBERS!" or optimizing for desired quantifiable variables. This isn't a normative claim or value assessment. Nuclear weapons science has advanced considerably since 1944 - the theoretical has come the practical, yields and range have dramatically increased, etc - but I consider such development overwhelmingly negative.

Under this framework, technoscience exists as a method that can applied to whatever material end. I wouldn't say this is the only useful way to think about the subject - for example, it does elide how much technological systems and even the act of empirical research rely on oppression and unsustainable resource extraction - but I'm not willing to completely discard it either.

Perhaps that's where we differ.

(We also notably disagree on whether laughter constitutes an effective tactic against millionaires like Kurzweil and Thiel.)

Dale Carrico said...

I think normativity attaches to discourses of "advance" even when you say that's not what you mean. Normativity is apparent even in your own formulation in your reference to "desired" variables. But, whatever, I think we actually agree in many of the narratives we disapprove and in our distrust of progressive triumphalist discourses generally, so I'm not going to press on this.

I don't exactly get what you are talking about when you propose that I may want to "discard technoscience completely" -- I don't think you believe that or that I say anything to encourage such a conclusion. I'm sure you recall how regularly and how insistently I advocate for more medical research and space exploration and science education and public investment in energy and transportation infrastructure and so on, and how often I excoriate futurological scenarios for their marginality from consensus science.

I definitely intend to continue ridiculing Kurzweil and Thiel for their pernicious nonsense, and I also think they should be taxed into the stone age like most super-rich assholes -- but I am open to suggestions about what more we can do to undermine their deranging and reactionary impact.

Summerspeaker said...

What I don't wish to discard is the framework of technoscience as a source of power to be wielded for various ends and applied generally. That's not only way to conceive of the subject; you seem to prefer a more holistic, nuanced, and historically specific understanding of science. I like that approach too and use it as suits my fancy. Scientific endeavors and technological applications in practice aren't necessarily as flexible or effective as the simplistic equation that technoscience equals power suggests. Whenever anybody says it's more complicated, they're right. But I can't think at all with reductions and abstractions.

I'm okay with ridiculing Kurzweil and Thiel on political grounds, but find mocking them for supposed stupidity or weirdness a distraction that resonates with oppressive normative structures.

Yes: "In world where billions lack access to basic comforts if not necessities, Peter Thiel has the visionary courage to promote sinking money into the construction of floating islands for rich people to party on."

No: "Ray Kurzweil once again exposes eir infantile ignorance of consensus science by pontificating on mind-uploading. What a kook!"

Dale Carrico said...

What I don't wish to discard is the framework of technoscience as a source of power to be wielded for various ends and applied generally.

You don't need to protect consensus science from me. I'm a pragmatist not a nihilist so there is little worry about that. I'm glad you're apparently changing your tune on that "embracing the impossible" in the name of freedom line, this seems a positive development.

Now, Ray Kurzweil IS a kook. I think he is both funny ha ha and funny NOT ha ha, and both are grist for my ridicule mill. He is a fraud indulging in infantile wish fulfillment fantasies. It's nonsense to say that critique is oppressive, no doubt your worry on this score is some vestige of your old irrationalism qua liberty line before you became a champion of consensus science. Thiel is an asshole. I could say more, and have done, endlessly more, but that suffices for now.

jimf said...

> What I don't wish to discard is the framework of technoscience
> as a source of power to be wielded for various ends and applied
> generally. . .

"Technoscience", eh? I'm reminded of Tolkien's distinction between
Elvish "magic" (which at its best -- setting aside the Rings --
was a blend of art and the desire to understand things just
for the sake of the love of knowledge) and the kind of "magic" wielded
by Sauron and Saruman. The former you could call "science" and
the latter you could call "technology". ;->

However, setting aside the fairy-tale metaphors, the **mantle** of authority that
you get to wear if you can convince the rubes (at least) that
you speak for Science is similar in this day and age
to the mantle of authority you could acquire in earlier times
if you could convince folks you speak for God and can interpret
the signs and portents for them. At any rate, if you didn't get burned at
the stake first -- it's always been a tricky game. But Joseph Smith
pulled it off with the God thing, and L. Ron Hubbard pulled it
off with the Science thing (before Moore's Law, when Psychotherapy
seemed like the latest Scientific thing to get people's heads
screwed on straight).

> I'm okay with ridiculing Kurzweil and Thiel on political grounds, but
> find mocking them for supposed stupidity or weirdness a distraction that
> resonates with oppressive normative structures.

Boy, in the **trenches** of science -- in the gossip that takes place
at the wine and cheese receptions following seminars and colloquia and conventions --
"mocking for supposed stupidity or weirdness" is something you bloody well
have to get used to, by all accounts (if you can't stand the heat. . .)!
That kind of biting criticism may be cleaned up and de-personalized
for journal articles, but it tends to be no less pointed there.

If that "resonates with oppressive normative structures", then (consensus)
science itself **is** a pretty damned "oppressive normative structure".

> I think there's something to Kurzweil's thesis of accelerating returns. . .
> As I've been trying to make clear, I mean advance in the sense of
> "MORE NUMBERS!" or optimizing for desired quantifiable variables.

You can't always count on the NUMBERS getting MORE forever. You're
living in a cloud of hype generated by a recent (50 or 60 year long)
unbroken run of gains in semiconductor manufacturing. That's fine, and hallelujah
for Google and Amazon and Wikipedia and eBay.

But you really should at least take a look at Bob Seidensticker's
_Future Hype: The Myths of Technology Change_.
http://www.amazon.com/Future-Hype-Myths-Technology-Change/dp/B002HJ3EEQ

Dale Carrico said...

Hey, Jim, good to hear from you! You know, Summer's been coming around a bit lately, especially on issues of structural tendencies to reactionary politics in a futurological discourse that can seem initially or superficially utopian or progressive or emancipatory -- and I respect the difficulty and integrity of that kind of critical re-assessment.

But I will admit I am genuinely perplexed about Summer's comments about how dismissing Kurzweil as a crank threatens consensus science or how my refusal to endorse a teleological narrative to development or to automatically imbue force-multiplication with progressivity might amount to some kind of anti-science view.

I don't get it at all. In the recent cyborg post that more or less triggered this latest round of (rather enjoyable) conversation I concluded with the statement:

Futurology provides no intellectual resources unique to itself with which to speculate (or organize) more reasonably about the diversity of costs, risks, and benefits of specific technoscientific changes to their actual stakeholders -- the relevant expertise will be found among the scientists, policy makers, and communities directly concerned with those changes -- meanwhile, futurology mobilizes confusions, fantasies, and fetishes occasioned by the technoscientific change to distract, derange, and denigrate our attention from existing intellectual resources the better to indulge irrational passions and peddle amplified consumption and acquiescence to the elite incumbent beneficiaries of the status quo to whom is entrusted the delivery of that amplified consumption which is what "The Future" of the futurologists usually amounts to.

Surely that critique is premised pretty clearly on an endorsement of actual science and actual knowledge at the relevant level of specificity? I am confused about the response that my view discourages specificity when it explicitly calls for it. I'm glad that Summer is finding the last political point more congenial lately, but the point about futurological distraction from scientific and stakeholder specificity is actually the deeper claim on which the eventual political depends. It makes me think I'm just not explaining myself clearly enough, a fine to do for a professional rhetorician!

jimf said...

> Thiel is an asshole. I could say more, and have done,
> endlessly more, but that suffices for now.

By the way, Thiel gets an homage in David Brin's latest,
_Existence_
http://www.amazon.com/Existence-David-Brin/dp/0765303612
http://io9.com/5918983/existene-david-brin-tackles-near-future-sci+fi-with-amazing-results
(which is not all that great, but I bought it on impulse,
so I'll bloody well finish it before I pass it along).
Brin is a member of the Lifeboat Foundation these days, it
seems, and the book is among other things a meditation
on "existential risk". (I gather that the only ultimate
solution to the problem is -- wait for it -- artificial
intelligence. But I haven't gotten to tne end yet.)
Robin Hanson ("Overcoming Bias") also gets a shout-out.

Anyway:

_Existence_, Chapter 34 "Seasteading"

"Ahead of him lay gray ocean, daunting and endless, flecked
with wind-driven froth and merging imperceptibly with
a faraway, turbid skyline. Except where he now stood, on
a balcony projecting outward from a man-made island -- a
high-tech village on stilts -- clinging to a reef that used
to be a nation.

That was now a nation again. . .

Some distance beyond, a series of other mammoth stilt-villages,
each wildly different in style, followed the curve of the
drowned atoll. Thielburg, Patria, Galt's Gulch and several
others with names that were even harder to remember. One
of them, all stainless steel and glass, was dedicated to
caring for aged aristocrats, immersing them in comfort. . .
before freezing them for a nitrogen-chilled journey through
time, aimed at repair and resurrection in a hundred years
or so -- to be young again, in tech-enhanced paradise. . .

**Seasteading**. . . Here, and in a dozen other locales, some
of the world's richest families had pooled funds to buy up
small nations to call their own, escaping all obligation
(especially taxes) owed to the continental states, with their
teeming, populist masses. . . Adaptation. Making the best
of rising seas. Turning calamity to advantage. . ."

;->

Anonymous said...

David Brin is such a horrible author.

Summerspeaker said...

@ jimf: Don't get me started on how oppressive practices permeate the scientific and broader academic establishment. If I had the time, I'd write a book or three on the subject. As far as numbers go, I'm well aware that trends - as my Statistics 101 professor said - only continue until they stop.

@ Dale: Funny - I feel I understand your position(s) rather well. That suggests I'm the one failing to communicate effectively. These are fascinating issues we could all go on and on about, but I think I'll give it a rest for the moment. I'm more interested in focusing my limited energies on criticizing dominant futurist narratives than elaborating our disagreements (as significant as they are). Just for the record, I haven't stopped identifying as transhumanist, abandoned utopian visions, or embraced scientific authority.

Good luck and best wishes. I'm sure we'll get into another extend argument sooner or later.

John Howard said...

I'm glad to know you guys aren't sure what you are saying either, or what side you are on. I still read Dale and think he's on my side, until he says no, I've been misunderstanding him. The discussion is at such a theoretical level and avoids specific public policy issues of today. Dale admits he just laughs and ridicules anyone who operates at the practical level, whether building islands or selling books or trying to achieve political progress.

I still think I can convince Dale that a blanket ban on creating people by any means other than joining a man and a woman's unmodified genes will be progress in the social justice realm, even as it stops so-called progress in the transhumanist realm. Our whole system of rights and liberty is based on everyone being created equal, as a child of a man and a woman. So much would be gained by stopping genetic engineering and postgenderism.

Athena Andreadis said...

I'm about to give a talk at Readercon titled "Chopra and Kurzweil: Ghosts in the Same Shell". The title tells you what I, and nearly all practicing scientists, think of Kurzweil's knowledge and understanding of biology, etc.

I'll probably post a variant of the talk after I've given it, so stay tuned.

Dale Carrico said...

It's nice to see that when John Howard runs out of reactionary sex panics he can still turn to reactionary anti-intellectualism to keep the Moot neck deep in the stoopid.

jimf said...

> [A] blanket ban on creating people by any means other than
> joining a man and a woman's unmodified genes will be progress
> in the social justice realm. . .

Yes, and while we're at it, lets put a blanket ban **now** on
starships going faster than Warp Factor 5.5, to forestall any
possible damage to the space-time continuum.

Look, legislation against make-believe technologies is **not**
"progress in the social justice realm."

It's much worse, and much more potentially subject to legal abuse,
time-wasting, and money-wasting, even than that ridiculous blanket
ban on embryonic stem cell research.

jimf said...

Athena Andreadis wrote:

> I'm about to give a talk at Readercon titled "Chopra and Kurzweil: Ghosts
> in the Same Shell". The title tells you what I, and nearly all practicing
> scientists, think of Kurzweil's knowledge and understanding of biology, etc.

P. Z. Myers on the sophisticated biological thinking of the
singularitarians:

http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2012/07/14/and-everyone-gets-a-robot-pony/

"Yes, that’s the future: steam-powered robot horses. And if
we shovel more coal into their bellies, they’ll go **faster**!"